Applying to Pre-Med and BS/MD Programs

Webinar Transcription

9-8-26-Applying to Pre-Med and BSMD Programs

Due to technical difficulties, the recording of this webinar started about 15 minutes late. To see a complete recording of similar material, click here. 

Dr. Katie Chiou: [00:00:00] Olympiad team, which is where, like, the biology medicine piece kind of came in. Um, so I did primarily the biology events. And so with all that together, and also my interest in, um, like mental health, I ended up actually, like, when I applied, I applied with a major in cognitive science, the focus in linguistics.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So I hope that kind of makes sense in terms of like, I, I went in thinking, “Okay, I know I wanna be…” I was like, “I, I, I, I think I wanna apply to like a STEM-adjacent field, but I don’t really know what I’m doing here.” And so I did a lot of research into, okay, I know I like the brain, um, and did- doing the research into the different kinds of like what is neuroscience, what is cognitive science, what is cognitive neuroscience, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like I did all of that, did like a little bit of looking into what the differences were, differences in terms of like what classes were mandated, and then also chose a specific pathway under cog sci that I felt like I could make a really good argument for. Like, I felt like I could say, “Hey, like this is a focus in linguistics because I’m interested in language.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, I’m interested, for example, in how when I was working at the hotline, I was [00:01:00] talking to kids who had been abused in their childhood.” So it made me interested and think about like what is it, like how does our environment and how does, um, how does abuse in abusive households, how does that actually shape our development of language?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Those are things that were interesting to me, and I applied to that major. I didn’t end up majoring in it. I ended up majoring in, you know, something else. But I also am a psychiatrist today who’s going into child psychiatry. And so there is something about when you are thinking of the application stage, and this is gonna be the r- the refrain all the way through this talk, is self-reflection.

Dr. Katie Chiou: If you can work on s- and this, this goes for my sophomores, my juniors, and my seniors, uh, and also anyone who younger. Like, I started to write things down about myself. I would ask people like, you know, “What are the things that stick out about me? What are the things that you find interesting about me?” Um, I would spend time whenever I was commuting on the bus to, to school or to work, um, I would spend time like writing down like little blurbs to help me kind of jolt essay writing.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, one of the essays that I ended up applying to Brown with, I actually did, I w- I wrote in my sophomore [00:02:00] summer, for example, for an essay competition. Um, and so what I’m trying to say is I’m encouraging all of you to spend time thinking about what you like and what you enjoy and your passions, and really dig in deep, because you can see how I gave you that whole trajectory of, of, ofness of my, of my application process to indicate like even though I didn’t really know what I wanted to be back then, it’s clear that I at least had my finger somewhat on the pulse, and I got more and more specific each time.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And, um, even if it just meant like eliminating what I didn’t like, right? It, it helped me pinpoint and also make for a genuine and compelling application because I knew what I wanted, I was able to express it, and it was clear that I had thought about what I wanted. And that’s a little part of what makes a really good pre-med essay strong, is that I want to know that you’ve thought about why you wanna become a doctor, and it’s not something that you, um

Dr. Katie Chiou: a lot of people like, you know, wanna become doctors because it’s a very prominent profession. Like, people know what being a doctor is, and they wanna help people. But I need to hear more than that. Um- [00:03:00] Okay. So what else can you do to demonstrate your interest in medicine on your college application? I know a lot of people ask me about this, so I’ll make sure I get into more depth in the Q&A as well.

Dr. Katie Chiou: But one of the first things that people will often talk about is shadowing. And actually, there should be three bullet points here. Shadowing is one. I already said I hadn’t done any shadowing, but what is shadowing? Shadowing is basically when you find, like, a doctor or someone in the healthcare field, it could really be anyone, like a dentist, anyone, and you just follow them through a day, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: And the most important thing about shadowing is not the fact that you’ve racked up 10,000 hours. It really should be about when you’re there, what are you observing and what stories are you taking away? Because ultimately shadowing or volunteering at a hospital, the main thing that you’re trying to l- you’re trying to get out of it is, one, more self-reflection.

Dr. Katie Chiou: What is it about this doctor? Like, what do they do well? What do they do poorly? It’s not about the, like, the medical information. I don’t need to know that. Um, I want to know, like, what is it that you were able to get out of that experience that taught you something about yourself and why you wanna become a doctor.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, for me, for example, [00:04:00] working at the suicide hotline, not the same thing, but kind of similar, was like, I remember at the end of every shift, I felt truly rejuvenated. Even though I was listening to stories of, like, some of the worst things that could happen to people, and I was lis- it was like, it, it was very sad, and I realized that I needed maybe that, like, that, um, im- like, that immediate, like, one-to-one talking to someone, and that is what made me ful- feel fulfilled compared to friends of mine who have, like, these beautiful, big ideas about the ways in which they can turn stem cells into, like, liver organs and, like, can save, like, thousands of lives, millions of lives.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, and that was something that I, it, it just didn’t fit with my personality. So it’s kind of identifying those pieces too. Um, volunteering at a local hospital or senior home is kind of that same thing, where you’re in the clinical space. The most important thing is for you to observe and look around you and kind of, like, start to collect stories, ’cause these ultimately can come out in your essays.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, and the third one that I didn’t mention here, or it’s not bullet pointed here, is research. ‘Cause I, I’ve, I’ve started to [00:05:00] see that high schoolers are getting more and more into research, and I almost always get a question about it. When I talk about research, um, what I’m really referencing Excuse me, is peer-reviewed research.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So what that means is, like typically it’s research, it might be done like with either clinical information or at the bench, like you’re literally pipetting DNA cells from here to here, right? And you are being overseen typically by a PhD or an MD who leads the whole research lab, and then you publish research that gets reviewed by other researchers, and then it ultimately gets published in a journal.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I don’t mean, because someone’s asked me this before, research is not when you go online and you do like your own personal research into a topic of your interest, let’s say like Alzheimer’s, and then you kind of write like interesting essays and blog posts about it. Although that’s a separate extracurricular and interesting in its own right, that’s not what I mean by when I say research.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I’m referring to a very specific kind of scientific research. Um, when it comes to research, I genuinely think you, like you have so much time to do this. I am many, many [00:06:00] years into my education now. I am now a doctor, and I’m still having to do research, so you will have plenty of time for it. When it comes to high school, it’s not something you need to have in order to get into a top university or to get into a BS/MD program.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, but I do also get asked questions about like how do I find research, and I would start by like cold calling, not cold calling, cold emailing professors at local institutions if possible. And also some of those summer programs, I’ll talk more about it if anyone’s interested in the Q&A section too, but some summer programs that offer research, um, can be valuable.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I know I, I did one of those, um, at UCLA when I was a ju- in my junior summer, and it was in bioengineering, and it taught me that I do not wanna do bioengineering. But, you know, that was my first foray into like what does research look like and, um, like what does it, like what does a job of doing research look like?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Okay. So general advice. Know which professors are harsh graders versus easier graders. I think GPA does matter a lot when applying for med school, and so when you’re [00:07:00] looking at like your school list and you’re looking to like apply to colleges, there are some schools that are famously really, really tough for pre-med students, or you might hear like this really competitive environment.

Dr. Katie Chiou: People are not really nice to when each other, one another. They’re like stealing notes. Those are all in my book, those are all red flags. Um, you… And, and I’ll give a personal example of I- one of the schools that I got into was Caltech, and I already said I hate math and physics. Um, and so when I got into Caltech, I like seriously considered it because I’m, again, I’m from LA and, and Pasadena’s like really nice.

Dr. Katie Chiou: It’s a really nice campus. It’s a really small school which I really liked. Um, and also I visited and I realized, oh my God, all these people are geniuses. Also, they all love math and physics, and I hate math and physics. Also, the grading here is about to be so tough. And the reason why that matters at all is because medical schools compared to other graduate schools, like let’s say like compared to like let’s say a physics PhD, a medical school [00:08:00] Whether fair or not, people have different opinions on it.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, we- they do care a lot about your GPA, specifically your STEM GPA, like your, your biology, chemistry, those, those classes and your grades there. And so when you’re thinking about a school to go to, you want to think about a school that is not unnecessary– like, is not really harsh when it comes to the grading, because that will make an impact for when you apply to medical school and try to get in.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, get your recommendations early. Ugh, this is something that will happen forever, but making those connections with mentors is really important, I think, all through the career. Um, I’ll say that you will need at least one humanities teacher and one STEM teacher. So, um, those of you who are seniors, you might have already bypassed this, or you might be thinking about it right now.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, when you’re picking, pick the person who knows you as a student and, like, knows you as a person and as a student. Like, knows you as a learner. Like, who are you when you’re thinking? Um, not necessarily the teacher who, like, you’ve gotten a perfect score in or you [00:09:00] have, like, the best grades in. It should be someone who is, has– is thoughtful and willing to com- com- comment on who you are as a person.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And one way to figure out who that, that might be is honestly to ask the upperclassmen. I find that a lot of times the upperclassmen or people who have graduated, they kind of have, like, a sense of who writes good recs. I know for me, myself, after I graduated, I was actually given my letters of rec, and reading through them, I was like, “Oh my God.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I think this actually made a huge impact into the schools I got into.” Because I– regardless of, you know, like, there are humans who are reading your application, and if a teacher is really saying amazing things about you, you’re gonna be swayed, right? Like, you’re gonna be like, you’re– that that’s gonna have a memorable impact on who you are.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Last thing is the thing that I find is the most common mistake. Um, people who are interested in pre-med, they often come to me and they’re like, “Okay, how do I make the strongest pre-med application possible? Like, what do I need to do? I’ll do all the things.” And the [00:10:00] answer to that, am I being totally honest, is to be the strongest applicant possible, not to be the strongest pre-med applicant possible.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I find that a lot of people write their personal statements about their interest in medicine, and they go on to write a lot of their other essays about their interest in medicine as well, and that ends up becoming a very one-note application. And once again, I read this application, I spent like, let’s say, 15 minutes on it, and I come away with no new information about you except that you wanna be a doctor, which is cool, but a lot of other people wanna be doctors too.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um- So if, if there’s one thing I can impress upon everyone is that show your interest in medicine or show your interest in biology or show your interests and passions and apply to the thing that fits best with your application and your interests. And from then on, like you can become pre-med from there, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Pre-med is like this like invisible designation. Um, you don’t even declare your major at most schools until the end of your second year. And so as long as you take the prerequisites you need to take to get into medical school, you are pre-med, right? [00:11:00] The fact that I took biology and chemistry classes meant that even though I was an anthropology major, I was pre-med because I could apply to medical schools ’cause I took the classes that I needed to take in order to apply.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, so that’s the one thing I wanna, I think, really instill in my people is like that that’s one of the biggest mistakes that I, I see. Okay. I’m gonna get through my slides. I’m gonna go a little faster. Okay. Finally, I’m gonna address the elephant in the room. What the hell is a BS/MD program? Okay. A BS/MD program is basically this is where we’re kind– Like this is the one thing that makes us kind of like the other, the other countries that I was talking about.

Dr. Katie Chiou: A BS/MD program is a really, really competitive program. There’s only a handful in the country, and they typically accept really only about 10 students. The largest that I know about is Brown, and we accept about 60 students. Um, it’s still like a 2% acceptance rate, so it’s incredibly competitive, and I would not encourage anyone to only apply to BS/MD program.

Dr. Katie Chiou: That is a bad idea. Don’t do that. Um, basically, you apply out of high school, and you are applying to college and medical school at the same time. So your application goes to two different sets typically of like [00:12:00] admissions officers. You literally have to get into college, and you have to get into medical school, um, where like MD doctors, like, you know, p- people who are my mentors and advisors read through my application and accepted me.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, BS/MD pathways Are very different from one to the other. Um, every single one has different application requirements. I would highly encourage if you are interested in BS/MD pathway, I’ll talk more about it in the Q&A as well, feel free to ask specific questions, but the most important thing is that each one is different and you will need to do your research into each individual one.

Dr. Katie Chiou: All from, like, what does the application look like to when the deadline is, that can be different, and some of them are actually a little bit earlier. There are some deadlines out there that are, um, end of November and early December. So those of you who are seniors out there, definitely, like, if you’re interested in BS/MD programs, look them up and get on it because, um, the applications are coming up soon.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And, um, they also have different requirements in terms of matriculation, meaning getting into medical school. So some BS/MD programs, you have a [00:13:00] conditional seat at the medical school, but the condition is that you have to take the MCAT, which is like the SAT for medical school, or the condition is that you have to maintain a 3.5 GPA in, in college, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: So the– basically, the point is sometimes those conditions are not very h- like, difficult to reach, and so, um, you’re not too worried about them. Um, but the important thing is that every single medical school is different. So for me, for example, at Brown, we did not have a MCAT requirement, so I never took the MCAT.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I bypassed that step entirely, and that was, I’m not gonna lie, one of the benefits of being a part of a BS/MD program, right? Was that I got to skip the application process and also the test-taking process entirely. Um, so it was a lot less stress on me when I was in college because I already knew that I had gotten into medical school and that I was gonna become a doctor if I wanted to.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, so those are what some, those are some of like the big, um, pluses. I would also say some of them are shorter in time period. There’s six-year and [00:14:00] seven-year programs out there. I personally wanted to do and chose an eight-year program, um, because I wanted the full college experience kind of in essence distilled.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, in terms of time commitment and structure, I think the main thing to be thoughtful of is that essentially you are agreeing that you will go to medical school and complete the four years of medical training. Um, the workload is typically similar. I said it was lighter here because that’s, that was my experience than the, than the traditional pathway.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, but the, the main benefit really is that you have the conditional acceptance. So you, you know, everything that you’re doing right now in order to get into college, you have to do again in college to get into medical school, unfortunately. And in a BS/MD program, because you have that conditional acceptance, you kind of

Dr. Katie Chiou: You don’t have to do all the things that… Like, you don’t have to do like medical extracurriculars. You don’t have to do research if you don’t want to, right? Everything is kind of like up to your own interests. That being said, most of the people that I know who are in a BS/MD program, we all kind of like pursued our own niches.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, some people like worked at startups. Some people did [00:15:00] like finance. Um, I did a lot of like really interesting like humanities research, um, and I worked for Disney at some point in like under the psychology part of it. Um, so there’s kind of like a little bit more flexibility and freedom to explore what you enjoy.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And the premise of it is that it actually ends up making you to, you a better doctor, right? ‘Cause I can come to my patients and I know all these things, and I also see medicine a little differently than maybe some of my traditional pathway folks. Um, that being said, I think there’s also some cons to be- like a BS/MD program.

Dr. Katie Chiou: A shortened program is often very, very intense. Some of these programs also come with strings. Some of them will say, for example, well, well, the basic one is you have to go to this medical school, right? So if I, I’m a part of Brown’s BS/MD program, I had a seat at Brown Medical School. If I applied to any other medical school, I lose my Brown seat.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, sometimes they’ll say you have to choose a primary care track, so, or you have to, um, we, we prefer in-state students, or you have to practice in a rural area after you graduate. So those are some things also when you’re doing research on BS/MD programs to [00:16:00] really look out for. Okay. How competitive are they?

Dr. Katie Chiou: I’ve already kind of answered this or at least kind of addressed this a little bit, but they really are very, very competitive. It’s, it’s typically like people who are applying to BS/MD programs have like top-notch GPA, top-notch, uh, test scores And are also taking like the most advanced STEM classes they have to offer in their high school.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, and usually have like pretty strong essays. And, um, the essays, I think part of what they’re looking for is a true thoughtfulness about why you wanna go into medicine. ‘Cause if you think about it from the admissions perspective, there are doctors on the other end of, of your paper, of your essays, who are thinking about, “Why should I take this 18-year-old?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Why should I take the chance on this 18-year-old and be convinced that they are going to make a great doctor one day?” And there, there’s a lot of things running through their mind, right? One is like, will they be able to survive the, the whole path of like, can they survive college? Can they survive medical school?

Dr. Katie Chiou: So that’s where like the GPA and the stat- [00:17:00] the SAT scores come in, or ACT scores come in. There’s also like, is this person mature enough? Have they thought through this decision enough? Like, do I think that they wanna become a doctor because maybe like, you know, like at least in my case, like my, my parents want me to become doctors?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, or do they wanna become doctors for like what is their– like how much do they know about what it means to be a doctor, and like how much am I convinced of the genuineness of their interest? And, and that’s also part of that, like when you’re applying to a BS/MD program, that’s also part of the story.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Because here, unlike in the pre-med stuff I was talking about, here you actually are applying to medical school, and so there are typically like essays specifically set aside for the MD part of the application where you have to convince someone that you wanna go into medicine. Okay. In terms of main benefits, um, I’ve mentioned already freedom, so I won’t, I won’t spend too much time on this ’cause I know I’m running short on t- time.

Dr. Katie Chiou: But I will say that the one thing I didn’t mention earlier is having connections and networks. Um, because I was [00:18:00] a PLME student at Brown, I was in Providence for a really long time, so I got to know the health system really well. I got to know the people really well. And I also had mentors who like, you know, like I had the opportunity to shadow really early on.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I sh- I shadowed a neurologist, um, who was like a really great mentor, um, throughout all of college and medical school. But it helped me decide that I don’t wanna be a neurologist. Um, and that was something that I got access to because of being part of the program

Dr. Katie Chiou: I think main downsides I’ve already mentioned in terms of like make sure you’re looking out for the strings that are attached to these programs. And then the accelerated programs, people often will report like they have to take their winter and summer breaks to take all these, um, additional classes. Um, I know a lot of you out there are like, “Ugh, whatever, it doesn’t make a difference.”

Dr. Katie Chiou: I would say as someone who like, you know, like very clearly chose a non-accelerated program, I chose an eight-year program, um, for me, the pathway ends up being very long anyway. Like right, [00:19:00] I’m in year two of four of my residency, and if I decided to choose fellowship, I would have to do another two years after that.

Dr. Katie Chiou: It’s a really long pathway. And the year that I got to take classes that I loved to take at, in undergrad, I really wanted the full undergrad experience. Um, just because I’m someone who I, I was always excited about the classes that were released. Every semester I would like log on as soon as the classes were out, and I would like go through every single class and be s- like, I wanna take like 25 of them, and I can only take five.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, so I was someone who like fully enjoyed and needed that time in college to explore my interests, and also learned a lot from that experience. I was, I think I was too intellectually curious at the time to be like brought down already to medicine. Um, so I was really appreciative of having the four years, and I think a lot of my classmates will say the same. Okay. How can you determine if it’s the right fit for you?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um I think that a program like Brown might be [00:20:00] the right fit if you are someone who has a lot of interests outside of medicine, or you might have a more non-traditional pathway into it. Um, we’re called the Program in Liberal Medical Education for a reason.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, the liberal medical education is a key part. So if you’re someone who knows that you love biology or neuroscience, and you wanna study those things to get into medical school, you might honestly be better off taking the traditional pathway because then y- you know, you can explore your interests and chase after it i- in the traditional pathway as, like, a more typical pre-med student.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And also then you have the ability to apply to whatever medical school you want. Like, you’re not stuck in one location for eight years. Um, but for someone like me who really took full advantage of the PLEDME system, like I didn’t have to take any math classes, for example, um, which I really appreciated ’cause, again, I don’t really like math.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And instead, I took classes like the history of prisons, which I still think about regularly to this day because I sometimes work in a prison. Um, right? So those are things that, [00:21:00] like, I think I, I’m so glad I had the opportunity to have. Um, you might also think about someone who, in a BS/MD program, you really have to know and have the self-reflection capacity to know that you wanna do medicine because ultimately it is a really long pathway, and you want to have thought it through.

Dr. Katie Chiou: That being said, I felt like it’s important for everyone to constantly question themselves. Like, do you really want to become a doctor? Like, to continue questioning that, uh, because, because of that it’s a long pathway, because you’re giving up a lot of your life and all of your 20s, um, to become a doctor, and I know that means nothing to most people.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I mean, it meant nothing to me when I was in high school. I was like, “Oh, so what? Like, 20s.” Um, but you are giving up that, and also I find that I do not make, I definitely do not make more money than most of my friends who are in other careers. Um, and they also started making money way earlier than me. So it really, the money just definitely doesn’t weigh itself out.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, but I think, yeah, if you can question yourself and continue [00:22:00] questioning yourself, um, it could be the right pathway for you. Um, in terms of opportunities for clinical exposure research, um, I did get to do a couple of really cool things. Um, I talked about, like, how I worked at Disney already, um, but I also got to go to China and Taiwan, um, through PLEDME, and they actually paid for a lot of my experience to learn traditional Chinese medicine.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So there were some cool things that BS/MD programs might have uniquely. Like, they might have better connections to researchers, and people are also, like, will- really willing to take a chance on you because you’re there for so long. They’re like, “Surely, like, this kid will be here for eight whole years.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Surely we’ll get something done.” Okay. So, um, this I remember when I answered this, I thought it was a silly question, but, um, when you complete a BS/MD program, you are a doctor, right? When you complete medical school, you are a doctor. You graduate with an MD or a DO. Um, you are a doctor, and you can go and practice if you do residency.

Dr. Katie Chiou: If you don’t do residency, though, you can still ca- technically call yourself a [00:23:00] doctor, but you will not be licensed or boarded, and you can go off into other fields. Some of my classmates did. Um, some of my classmates, by the way, were a part of the Brown BS/MD program and decided not to go into medicine.

Dr. Katie Chiou: That’s, like, decided not to go to medical school at all, which is fine, and they also saved a lot of money. Um, they did some self-reflection and figured out that they didn’t wanna do this, and I, like, honestly, like, truly applaud them for that. I had other people who completed medical school and then realized that they didn’t wanna do medicine, and they, you know, got jobs in consulting or in finance or in other things, um, uh, and, and technically are still doctors but do not practice clinically.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So that’s, that’s… Hopefully, that kind of makes sense. I think sometimes when I pl- uh, explain BS/MD programs, it can get kind of confusing. Um, in terms of financially, I think this is one area where it can, BS/MD programs, it can be an up or a down. So the most important thing that I want everyone to know is that in medical school, there are very few financial aid options.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, if you think about [00:24:00] it, people don’t really wanna give free money to someone who’s going to become a doctor because they assume, “Okay, well, you’re gonna be a doctor one day. You’re gonna make a lot of money.” So most of the, the things that, like, most of the money that you spend in medical school is gonna be taken out in a loan.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, and typically that’s around $200,000 for all four years of medical school. So, with that in mind, what I’m trying to say is that in college, there’s a little bit more flexibility, right? There’s, like, need-blind admissions, for example, um, which I could say at a lot of universities, including Brown, like, we had need-blind admissions.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So if you are able to qualify for getting some sort of financial aid, especially if it’s not in the form of a loan and you don’t have to pay it back, that can be a huge win, um, and might be a reason why you might choose a different school over a BS/MD program, right? ‘Cause if, um, I remember when I applied, for example, Princeton offered me a pretty decent financial aid package, and that’s something that I, you know, seriously considered because that would have saved me a lot of money in college.

Dr. Katie Chiou: It’s money that I didn’t need to pay [00:25:00] back, and overall, I would have saved, like, like, tens of thousands of dollars, um, by taking that pathway and going to Princeton and then, you know, going on to medical school after. And I would be in the same place I am today, like, I would still be a doctor. Um, so th- those are– that’s a reason why you might think about a BS/MD program twice if you apply for the program and you find that their financial aid offer is not as good as you want it to be.

Dr. Katie Chiou: On the other hand, if you go to an accelerated program, you might also save a year of tuition, right? If you go to a seven-year program, you save one year of tuition, so that is also nice Okay. Um, quickly, factors to consider. You’re gonna be stuck there for eight years, so make sure that you like that city, make sure you like that town.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, prestige of the program. I do get asked this a lot, and, um, I’m not gonna lie to you all, I’m- I’ve always been, like, a very blunt person. Um, prestige does matter to some extent when it comes to the admissions process. I think that it matters in particular … Okay, let me see. When you are applying to medical school out of college, there’s actually a, a pr- [00:26:00] uh, like, the prestige matters, but not as much as you would think, because there’s a pretty even playing ground in the sense that, right, we’re looking at STEM GPA, we’re looking at the MCAT score.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, they’re more fair about it, and they often also are looking to take students from lesser-known schools or liberal arts schools or schools from areas that, that maybe are outside of their usual catchment. When it comes to applying for residency, there is, um, more of a prestige factor. And to be clear, residency is a step that happens after medical school.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So you’re in medical school, you become a doctor, you get a residency, which is what I am in now, um, and you, like, learn how to practice. You’re a trainee. If anyone’s ever watched, um, The Pitt, um, most of the characters are residents. Um, so that, that jump often does rely a little bit on prestige. So when you’re thinking about a BS/MD program, you might be thinking about the MD part of the prestige, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, what do their matches look like? Do they, um, if someone out of that [00:27:00] medical school wants to go into a highly competitive field, like orthopedic surgery, let’s say, um, can they do that, or do they struggle to make that happen? Um, so that’s especially true if you are thinking at all about a highly competitive specialty like orthopedic surgery or, um, neurosurgery, for example.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, just … Or, you know. Like, more competitive specialties can have a little bit more of that bias towards a higher prestige medical school. And the same thing applies to the MD versus DO programs. At the end of the day, both MDs and DOs are doctors. Um, unfortunately, there is still some bias when it comes to competitive specialties against DO programs.

Dr. Katie Chiou: That’s something that you want to keep in mind, right? Like, it’s just something to, to know. Okay. Oof. Okay. I whipped through it.

Sam: Very impressive getting through all of that. Um, instead of going straight to the Q&A, I am going to do the quick, uh, CollegeAdvisor [00:28:00] conversation real quick, uh, and then we can dive straight, dive into the questions.

Sam: How does that sound?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Sounds perfect.

Sam: All right. So before we dive into our Q&A, I wanna take a quick minute to tell you about who we are, because everything we talked about tonight is exactly what our team thinks about and helps with every day. CollegeAdvisor.com has guided more than 10,000 families through the college admissions process.

Sam: Our team is made up of 200-plus admissions experts and former admissions officers, so our team knows what it takes to get that acceptance letter. In the most recent admissions cycle, 62% of CollegeAdvisor students who applied to BS/MD students were admitted to at least one, as an example, and overall, they had a 27% acceptance rate to BS/MD programs.

Sam: In the class of 2026 alone, one in three Ivy League a- League applicants were admitted to at least one of their Ivy League schools, and two in three applicants applying to top 25 schools were accepted to one or more. To learn more about how you can get [00:29:00] started with us, scan the QR code to sign up for a free sixty-minute strategy session with an admissions specialist on our team.

Sam: During this meeting, you’ll receive a preliminary assessment of your academic profile, along with some initial recommendations on what you can do to stand out. At the end, you’ll also learn more about the premium packages we offer to pair you with an expert who can support you in building your college list, editing your essays, and much more.

Sam: We’re here for the whole process. Now, back to the fun part of the Q&A We got a lot of very interesting questions. Um, and one of the ones that I think we’ll, I’ll, we’ll start with was actually one that you had sort of ended with. In med school, did you feel that people who went through th- the traditional…

Sam: Read the wrong one. Uh, in the BS/MD program, like your eight-year BS/MD program, how did it feel to be, uh, staying on for four more years after you watched some of your friends graduate? [00:30:00]

Dr. Katie Chiou: I did see that was an interesting question. I have, I don’t think I’ve ever been asked that. Um, I will say I was biased in the sense that one of my best friends, um, from medical school and my roommate for like three years at Brown ended up going on to medical school.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So she took, uh, one or two gap years, I’m forgetting now. I think one gap year, and then actually ended up applying traditional pathway to Cornell for med school, where she has now graduated and is going to be an orthopedics, is, is an orthopedic surgery resident. So that’s pretty dope. Um, so in that sense, like we were kind of like on the same path.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, but yeah, there’s a s- if, there’s like, you know, there’s a sense of loss with anyone, I think, when you graduate medical school and everyone kind of goes off. And also, I will fully admit to the fact that medical school, you get all these brand-new classmate, brand-new friends, right? You get to make new connections.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And also medical school is really, really tough. Um, it was hard. And so if anything, I was like, part of me was like, “Oh, like, thank God I know the campus and the area [00:31:00] already,” because I can’t imagine having, like getting… I, I get lost very eas- I get lost generally very easily. I was like, “I can’t imagine getting lost and, and not knowing Providence as well,” ’cause that would be such a struggle for me, like driving to the hospital.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, so there was good and bad in that. Um, that’s a, that’s a good question.

Sam: Yeah, I can definitely imagine how being familiar, um, can make the trauma bonding a little easier, ’cause that’s one thing I’ve heard a l- from a lot of my friends who did med school. You mentioned also the DO program as well. Could you talk a little bit about the difference between an MD and a DO?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yeah. Um, so a DO is a doctorate of osteopathic medicine versus an MD…

Dr. Katie Chiou: Oh, God. Oh, yeah, doctorate of allopathic medicine. I was like I need to make sure I said those w- words correctly. When it comes down to it, I, both a MD and a DO practice in the exact same capacity. We’re both doctors at the exact same level. Um, and that is different from other prescribers and [00:32:00] providers, like for example, physician assistant or a nurse practitioner.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Those are, those are kind of different categories of things. Um, like people call them like mid-level providers. An MD and DO, like you are the attending physician. You are a doctor. You do the exact same thing. The real difference that I’m told at least when it comes to some of the DO programs is you learn a little extra, like, you, there’s like a little extra stuff about like lifestyle medicine that you learn.

Dr. Katie Chiou: But I think the true impact of the difference actually really does just come down to, um, like how it’s perceived is, is really what it comes down to. Um, and I think that, uh, u- unfortunately still in like some of like the old school, like old school admissions people in like surgery especially, there can still be a bias against it.

Dr. Katie Chiou: But, like I have family members who are DOs, I’ve been to doctors who are DOs, and in practice like the knowledge level you have and the education you receive is the same. It’s really just like a prestige, uh, bias thing that’s, that’s kind of [00:33:00] occurred.

Sam: Gotcha. You also mentioned the eight-year program versus some of the other timeline options.

Sam: How do students end up on those timelines? Is that specific to the university and the BS/MD program, or is that something that students have the opportunity to choose for themselves?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yeah. So, um, so I’ll, I’ll start by setting a typical timeline for traditional pathway. Um, so most typically what happens is that students complete college, and actually more and more people take a year or two years of gap year in between, uh, college and medical school to do shadowing, to do research. Um, and it’s so common to the point that actually when I was applying for residency, a lot of the residency program directors were like, “I don’t understand,” like, “Why did you go straight through?”

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, “Why did you only do eight years?” And then I had to explain to them that it was part of a program. Um, so most commonly it’s, right, four years of college, one or two years of gap year, and then four years of [00:34:00] medical school. Um, there are some programs out there that are, by creation, they are six years or seven years, and the way that works is they typically shorten the undergrad time.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So you’ll do either three years, or I guess in some cases two years, um, but you’ll do two to three years of college, and you have to condense every single one of your pre-med requirements into that time period, which is why it can be really intense. Because if you, if you can imagine, like all those classes that you were trying to juggle and take, uh, to survive and get into medical school, you are now taking in like a condensed period of time.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So I do have, like I know I have residents and co-residents who I’ve worked with in the past who actually went through some of those programs, and they would say that they, they had a hard time in some of them because it was really intense, and also the benefit of it is that they did finish the whole medical journey one year or two years earlier.

Sam: Oh, goodness. Um, you mentioned some of the fellow residents that you had. We had one of [00:35:00] the international stu- students in the audience actually, who had initially asked, you know, we had been talking about this before the call, uh, before the webinar started, uh, for international students, what’s the best pathway?

Sam: And I had shared my background being international admissions, not exactly the most recommended for most students. But how many of your fellow residents are, have an international background?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, and yeah, so that, the answer to that is, uh, can be a little bit complicated. So when you go to

Dr. Katie Chiou: It, it can be really, really hard to get into a US medical school as an international student. That being said, if you are an international student who went to an American college, so one of my co-residents, for example, is from Lebanon. He went to Harvard, good for him. He went to Harvard for college, so naturally he had a great time.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Wait, no. He went to Columbia, sorry, [00:36:00] for undergrad. And then went to Harvard for medical school. My apologies. Sorry, I slandered. Um, a- and then now is a co-resident with me. So it, it can be much easier for an international student if they start off their educational, like their higher educational journey here in America, because it can be really tough to get into a US medical school as an international student.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Doesn’t mean it’s not done, but it’s, it can be tough. And the reason for that is because it’s actually really hard. It’s like every level gets harder, basically. It’s ac- the reason for that it’s hard to get into a US medical school being an international student is it’s actually because it’s really hard to get into residency, uh, as an international grad.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Mm-hmm. So you will actually have like, some of our co-residents will be, um, full-on, like attending doctors, like have practiced as a doctor by themselves for years. And one of them was in Spain, and one of them was, I forgot, maybe in Egypt. And when they come to America, if you want to be a doctor in America, the rule that we have is that you have to do residency essentially.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, like barring a couple things, but most times you have to do [00:37:00] residency in America. So they actually have to reapply to residency in order to be doctors that can practice in America, which kinda sucks because, like, they have to redo it all over again and accept a lower pay. But it’s kinda cool for me because they’re like my seniors, and I get to watch these, like, doctors with years of experience, and they’re teaching me.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Uh, and they’re right, like they’re like technically the year ahead of me. Um, so, so I mentioned one of my co-residents who Um, yeah, like start as a higher education here. And I have another, um, co-resident who is, is technically and is actually what we consider like an international medical resident. Um, and he grew up in Australia.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Oh my God, I’m gonna butcher this too. He grew up in Australia, went to Cambridge for university, went back to Australia for medical school, and then matched into residency at New York, which is pretty difficult. Um, that being said, I think him being … He, he is a US citizen, and I think that did help quite a bit because, um, residencies have different sponsors for visas, and that was something that my, um, Lebanese, uh, friend like had s- like [00:38:00] had to deal with when it came to matching.

Dr. Katie Chiou: So, uh, all in all, I think there are definitely extra barriers for international students, unfortunately. It’s not insurmountable, as can be evidenced by two of my co-residents who are actually two people I really, really like and get along really well with. Um, but it is tough

Sam: Yeah. Uh, at the moment I think there are only 70 schools that even accept international students for med

Dr. Katie Chiou: school.

Dr. Katie Chiou: I believe that.

Sam: Um-

Dr. Katie Chiou: It is

Sam: unfortunate … it, it’s pretty limited. Um, one of the students, or one of our s- uh, attendees asked a really interesting question, and that is the prestige math. If you can get into a BS/MD at a regionally known school versus pre-med at a prestigious school What would you pick?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yeah, that’s a good question.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And I imagine, I don’t know where this person’s coming from, and I, I don’t even know your name, I don’t know anything about you. Um, you’re an anonymous person to me. But I … One [00:39:00] that comes to my mind is Rutgers, because if I remember correctly, Rutgers has … It’s either Rutgers or I know, um, RPI in, in Albany also has, like, um, a, a, a BS/MD program.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And I think part of it comes down to you should do your research into the regional medical school and, um, and also college, and think to yourself, like, “Would I be happy going here?” I think part of, like when you’re doing a BS/MD program is too, like, don’t have regrets. Like, I, I don’t want anyone to ever pick something and be like, “Ah, but what if?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, what if I could have gone to Harvard?” And then to live out the rest of your life with that regret because at 18 you chose, right, to do medical school. And all intents and purposes, if you went to this prestigious other college, uh, I’m gonna use Harvard again, you went to Harvard and, like, you still wanted to become a doctor, the chances are if you could get into, like, this regional medic- like BS/MD program, you probably could also thrive and be [00:40:00] a wonderful premed at Harvard, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: And so it comes down to, like, what is it that you ultimately want? Like, what will serve you and also give you the least what-ifs in life? Um, if you go to the traditional, if you get to go to like this regional med school, but you’re like, “Hey, like I know,” I keep, I’m gonna keep using Rutgers ’cause I don’t have one for California.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, I … Ru- Rutgers is a, is actually a really, really good medical school, medical program, serves New Jersey really well, and is like the predom- like is the preeminent, like, medical center of New Jersey. And like y- maybe even like you want to stay at Rutgers, and you wanna be an attending there, and you can see yourself living the rest of your life in New Jersey.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, that could be like a really … Like, that’s very early in your life to be like plotting this far, but like that might make really good sense for you, right? Versus, um, I will say for my one regional program that I know of in California was at … Actually, I shouldn’t say. Um, I’m not gonna dog on them. Um, I won’t say their by name, but basically they had a questionable accreditation.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Accreditation is basically like, um, from a licensing board, like way above, like this [00:41:00] big, like corporation, and they basically get to mandate if a medical school is good enough to be handing out MD degrees essentially, or DO degrees. Um, and so if someone, if, if a school loses accreditation, you basically have paid them money and you do not get a MD or DO degree, and that’s really, really bad.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, and so this program that I’d heard of was brand new, and I didn’t know anything about it at the time, but I, I was like thinking about going there ’cause it’s in California, I could stay close to my family. And then I was like, “Oh, but it’s so new.” Like, it just felt a little bit scary to me. And then looking back, I like a couple years later heard that they had some issues with accreditation and I was like, “Oh my God, thank God.”

Dr. Katie Chiou: I think that’s the thing with like new programs. If something sounds really new and a little bit too good to be true, it can … Oftentimes it can be too good to be true.

Sam: I think I know which program you’re talking about. Yeah. I know that we are coming close to time, and so I don’t wanna ask too many more questions.

Sam: Um, but, uh, we have two here that I think are gonna be [00:42:00] really good and easy to end f- end on. Yes. You mentioned a lot about how it’s important to know who the tough graders are, what grades matter. Will medical schools take into account the difficulty of your undergrad school when looking at your GPA?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Hmm.

Dr. Katie Chiou: That’s a good question. Um,

Dr. Katie Chiou: I think to simplify the answer, the an- the answer, I’m sure there is some yes and no, but to simplify it, I’m gonna basically say no, they do not. Because at the end of the day, medical schools are v- pretty, like, famously strict at filtering when it comes to the GPA number. Like, they want to see a 3.7 STEM GPA, for example.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Like, that’s typically right. Like, 3.7 or 3.8 STEM GPA is ideal for applying to medical schools, and that is that, um, regardless of where you went to school. And so that’s, that is what I w- I, I was trying to illustrate with my example about Caltech. That is what differs [00:43:00] between, um, like a medical school versus, um, if I was applying for like a PhD.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Because a PhD, if I went to Caltech, like that name of going to Caltech or going to MIT or going to like these big schools, like that would give me the connections that I need to become a really successful PhD applicant. But medical school is a little bit more, like they do have these like… They’re a little bit harsher about the numbers in that way, and so, um, I think that’s something to keep in mind as you’re, uh, like looking at schools.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And I, I will also say, like a lot of these top-notch schools have very favorable grades. Like, don’t, don’t just think like, “Oh, because it’s an Ivy League school, it means the grading is harsh.” That’s not a, that’s not a true blanket statement. Um, in fact, some schools are like famously, I’m gonna say Brown, like we are famously like a pretty friendly grader, um, because these, like our schools want us to get into medical school, right?

Dr. Katie Chiou: It looks bad on them if we don’t, basically. Um, and so don’t, like, don’t weed out like prestigious schools just because of that, but definitely like keep your ear to the ground and [00:44:00] like hear what people are saying. Like, hear what the pre-meds at the school are saying, like what is the environment like? Is it cutthroat?

Sam: All right. Final question, and I think hopefully it’ll be a bit of a softball question, I will admit. You’ve mentioned a couple of times the requirements for getting into med school. How do students know what the required courses for getting into med school would be?

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yeah, that’s fair. Um, it honestly, first of all, when you go to college, you will have someone who’s in the career advisory program.

Dr. Katie Chiou: You actually wanna look for that. They should have a pre-med advisor. They will definitely help guide you. Um, and when you get to college in general, you’ll have like a major advisor who can help plan out and make sure that you’re taking all the classes you need to take. The other thing is, and I, I went through this with, like I was saying, my best friend, who, like, I remember was scrambling last minute ’cause she found a school she really wanted to go to that required a extra literature class, and she was like, “Oh my God, I didn’t take a literature class,” so she took one her senior year.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Anyways, um, most medical schools also will list them on their website. So if you have like a couple of medical schools that you have your heart set on, or you each wanna like research a [00:45:00] couple, um, like broadly to see, get a general idea of what the required courses are, that’s usually the easiest way to do it.

Dr. Katie Chiou: And they’re usually pretty, like, straightforward. It’s like you need to have like X amount of English classes, X amount of like psychology or sociology, like X amount of biology This or go. And I will also say, like, the pre-med community, it’s, it’s like a genuine community. There’s a lot of people who wanna do pre-med, so pretty much, like, if you just follow in the steps of the people above you, you will get the requirements done.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Um, it’s like a very well-tread path.

Sam: All right. With that, I wanna say thank you so much for your time and sharing your knowledge. I know as a doctor you’re incredibly busy, and I think I speak for everyone in the audience when I say we’re honored to have gotten the chance to learn a little bit more from you.

Sam: Thank you all, for everyone who’s in the audience. Thank you once again to the amazing Dr. Katie Chiou. Hope you all have a wonderful night, and thank you for joining us here with CollegeAdvisor.

Dr. Katie Chiou: Yes. Thank you, everyone. Bye.